Shaun Wang Interviews Zhang Peili

We thank Shaun Wang 王上 for allowing us to reproduce excerpts from his bilingual book Motive 动机, published by China International Press in August 2014.  Shaun is the son of two celebrated artists, Wang Gongxin王功新 and Lin Tianmiao 林天苗.  Motive is his second book. His first book, Twelve Days in Vastness, a record of his journey to Xinjiang, was written in English and self-published.  The eighteen-year-old author explains himself in the Introduction to Motive, reproduced below in English and Chinese. We have chosen to feature his interview with the artist Zhang Peili 张培力, often called the ‘father of video art in China’. Zhang heads the Department of New Media at the China Academy of Fine Arts 中国美术学院 in Hangzhou and is Director of the Shanghai-based non-profit art space and museum OCAT (Contemporary Art Terminal). Geremie R. Barmé’s reading of Zhang’s 2008 installation work, A Gust of Wind (Zhen feng 阵风), appears here. — The Editors

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Motive: Interviewing 23 art individuals

Introduction
Shaun Wang 王上

What’s provoking about this project, which I came to realize during the process of the interviews, is that I am one of those spoiled children born into a family of two famous artists, a second generation of an artistic aristocracy; a child who is able to cut corners while many others who are more devoted and more professional dream to have the chance of interviewing one of these art individuals. Having these special art-related opportunities is like those heirs of business tycoons inheriting material wealth. It’s something I was born with, but I have to prove myself worthy to become the person I should be; I have to show that I am capable of making good use of my parents’ resources with discretion. In other words, I was only able to conduct this project on the basis of all the connections of my parents.

Despite my glorious conviction to justify myself, I am honestly clueless about what I want to do in the future.As a teenager living in this age of information, where all kinds of Internet resources and social media overflow, it’s extremely hard for me to grasp the profession/major I would like to pursue. It’s also the reason why I came up with this project, which aims to understand the ins and outs of the artistic circle through interviewing different prominent individuals, and try to get a sense of what it is like to be an interviewer.

My parents, being artists, are very liberal, and they have no preference towards my career.However, this brings me onto a journey–a journey where my parents put all their hearts into helping me find the dearest passion to my heart. Some may say that I am fortunate to be blessed with an easy life and a loving family, but sometimes I’d rather be forced onto a path with a definite direction, instead of strolling in one place looking into the vast sea of possibilities.

During the 1970s and 80s, Chinese artists–many of whom are famous now–had very limited career opportunities. It was a time when the country was closed to the outside. However, limited as the resources were, these young people chose art, as it was the perfect way to explore their creative passion. This aroused my curiosity,and I wonder how these artists, with no previous role models to follow, gathered enough courage to venture into the realm of contemporary art. I am curious if they were politically and economically suppressed while doing art. What was their state of mind and what was the motivation that pushed them forward? And how did they develop their own perspectives? More importantly, how did they bring Chinese contemporary art out of underground to its current status as a competitor in global art market?

I became acquainted with many of these artists ever since I was a little boy, and their art accompanied me through my childhood. Naturally, viewing these works brings to mind my childhood, especially when I was brought to some of the earliest galleries in Beijing. It is a feeling mixed with nostalgia and joy; a feeling that evokes the meaning of home.

It was during this time when I grew up (over the last 18 years) that Chinese contemporary art community experienced its most rapid growth. It was also during my mother’s pregnancy of me that she created her first installation work.

Initially, my purpose for this book was not to understand the philosophy behind each artist’s work, but rather to focus on the attitude each artist needed to achieve success. However, after interviewing a few artists I began to realize the entanglement between the daily life of the artist and his or her artistic philosophy.

Trying to establish the interviews is often the hardest part in this project. Frequently when I attempted to set up the time with the artist, they would decline; some wanted to see a copy of the interview questions; some wanted to have a talk before they accepted my interview request; some inquired about my connections, and some arranged the meeting in a massage parlor trying to make the meeting as awkward as possible, which actually made me realize that art can be discussed in any situation.

I respect each interviewee’s decision; I understand the academic positions and implications behind their decisions. Particularly, rather than accepting a 30-minute interview, a few individuals would take out 2 hours, over the phone, to tell me how they believed that the interview was something they didn’t prefer. It reflected their stern belief in their artistic stance, which also added to my understanding of the seriousness within art.

Most of the interviewees still took me as a child, and it took some time to convince them that I was capable of discussing art, and also, complicated ideas. A few of them still did not feel the need or desire to express themselves expansively in words. They still treated the interviews as though they were inferior to those established by a professional. However, interestingly these artists became very truthful and down-to-earth when I interviewed them; they replied to my questions without any professional barriers; they advised me on matters that they wouldn’t discuss with other professional interviewers.

Most importantly, from a 17-year-old’s perspective, these interviews revealed how under the same social influences, different artists came to choose different approaches to their art. Some consistently remain the same while some others are very enthusiastic about changing themselves, constantly switching to new ways of presentation. The remaining artists, however, hold on to their principles with confidence, guarding what they believe in.

What I didn’t expect is that through the process of interviewing, my artistic boundaries were reestablished; they were constantly expanding, from an individualistic view into a more worldwide perspective.

Similarly, the subjects that were being conveyed through the interviews also became more varied. For instance, there’re such topics as the difference between western philosophy’s influence on western art and that on the Chinese art community;or self-identity and multi-cultural identification; feminism and other political subjects; and artists entering the market.

Through these interviews I was also able to realize that artists, entrepreneurs, philosophers and scientists started to blur in boundaries. They all seem to share something in common, and people in the future will finally have to possess multi-discipline skills in order to succeed.

In the end, I have to say that through all my childhood and adolescent years I’ve always been fortunate, for my parents never ceased to support me in any direction I’d like to go.

To finish up, I would like to thank everyone who accepted or declined my request for interviewing him or her. I’d like to give my thanks to my parents for their continuous encouragement throughout the entire project; to Leon, Yezi, Lin Dongwei, Lin Tianfang, Wang Chih-Chien, and Charles Lee for their helpful suggestions throughout the book. There are just too many people to thank and without them I wouldn’t be able to present this book.

 

Minor Introduction

 Zhang Peili

If I had the chance to live again I think I would be exactly the same, since you have no choice but to follow your heart.

An artist is not someone who possesses some privilege in a certain field. Art is not like patent; when something becomes a patent, it would turn into a tool for the society and could then be mechanically reproduced.

 

Interview with Zhang Peili

Interview Date: 17 August 2013

S: Because I am very confused about what I want to do, when you were my age (17 years old), have you already set out to become an artist?

Z: Yes, it seemed so. I didn’t have many interests. Becoming an artist was a good option for me. When I graduated from high school and the Cultural Revolution had just ended. An artist could not do any other things but drawing. Actually I began to draw as early as when I was studying in grade 3, I began to practice sketching. All my friends were related with the arts, we were all admiring the students from art schools, and fancied that one day we could become one of them. That’s also why I was not able to play with the kids in the neighborhood because they were not art-lovers.

 

S：Have you ever doubted your decision in becoming an artist?

Z：Though I want to become an artist, but at first I did not want to make it my lifetime career. After graduation from high school, I began to work and make a living. I also wanted to become a movie projectionist in a cinema, or a librarian, and then I could work and had fun (see movies and read many books) at the same time. What a wonderful thing! Later we had a chance to go to college, which was one of the important things for people at that time. In 1978 I worked as a surveyor at the construction site for around two years, I would draw when I was free from work, because I did not like this kind of work even though it did not have much pressure. When I was admitted to an art school, it seemed I was only able to do arts, not any other things. I have doubted my choice of becoming a painter, but eventually I still worked my career with art related things.

 

S：As the first man making video art in China, why did you choose the video language to express yourself? Have you ever seen the western equivalent video artwork before? Or did you just make as experiments?

Z：Maybe I can explain it in several aspects: First, after 1986, I began to doubt my choice of becoming a painter because oil painting didn’t seem to be able to express my thoughts in arts, and I have started to tried other methods; second videos and television programs, foreign movies became more and more popular, but we could not see original video artworks in person, and only saw the pictures of the works… Only small pictures indicating this kind of situation: an installation with a television playing something interesting… This is what was called “video arts”. I felt thrilled because besides this kind of art we have already learned that there were other forms of art, like “Earth Art” ,“Performance Art”, “Happening Art”, “Neoplasticism”, “Installation Art”, “Modern Art”…etc. So I thought video art was a new and good form that I could also use without any restrictions.

Artists are not patent holders as people are in other fields; drawing isn’t something that you professionalize in. If one becomes a patent he or she will become a machine for mass production. So this is an occasional opportunity that enabled me to express my thoughts with video.

At that time I thought video arts had these features:

People didn’t have too much understanding of the possibility within videos, except they would watched from TV channels or commercial channels; And for me, I wanted to do something different from the standard concepts of the videos, and this is the most obvious thing for me. Also the video has the feature of “time” giving it a moving quality, which paintings, photography and other art forms can’t include. The video may be related with the audiences’ body. For example, when we are watching videos, we must stay for a longer time until it has ended, this is when we are able to understand what the video wants to tell us. The language of the video should express in a period of time, then the “time” becomes an important part. During this period, what you see will have a relationship with the “time” and may influence your body; say, make you feel boring or exhausted. This is what I want to express. So I make the first video piece called “30 X 30”, the duration is around 3 hours, which looks like a practical joke. I just wanted to let audiences feel uncomfortable.

 

S：After you displayed the piece ’30 X 30′, what made you continue your practices in video art? Is it out of your own curiosity or because some people made positive comments and feedbacks to your work?

Z：I think the reason is, technically speaking, video became easier to control and easier to operate, but if I made a realistic painting, I must spend several months to finish it. Video is also more direct; I prefer this method. At the turning point of 1980s-1990s, I was given a chance to make videos for some people like Xin Zhibin, the famous CCTV news announcer. This was an exciting thing for me. I can use this kind of art form to interfere into the mainstream media. So later I found that video had such a power of interfering society. It’s also an interesting thing for me. Later in 1990s(around 1992,1993) I traveled to US, Europe including France and saw many shows, which expanded my vision and understanding. Then I found many things within video art agreeing with each other though they have never influenced each other directly. I did not make an academic research about the texts and concepts of video arts, but when I saw the videos outside China, it felt very familiar and daring to me, even though we were distant from each other. That’s also a big reason that made me to continue.

 

S：I like very much the video artworks you and my father make. I also want to become a video artist. But I also know that the market for video arts is very limited, and I want to have a decent life because my generation was born into a supplied environment. Can you give me some suggestions and advices? What made you stick to your career in video arts in front of so many practical difficulties?

Z：When you decide to become an artist at the very beginning, you must be well prepared; you may only be able to live a normal life, making only enough to live comfortably. A well-to-do life cannot be promised in this path; you may be lucky but you should know not everyone is lucky.

At the beginning, it’s also very hard for all who did video art to move forward. I flied to NYC to see your father and mother; they were also not in good conditions. Even Geng Jianyi, our teacher, and other of our friends in Hangzhou weren’t the same. At that time, what we were doing could not provide us with a decent life so we had to do something else to earn a living such as making commercial paintings for ads and anything from which we can make money. We also knew that foreign artists were doing the same thing before they can make a living by doing art, and some artists are still doing commercial side paths even when they have already achieved success; for example, an artist called Lois Conner, who makes black and white photography and whom you probably know, had been a professor at Yale, and before that she also made commercial photography. Geng Jianyi and I never quit our occupations of teaching at college because at least this job could provide us with a basic financial guarantee to support our families. But if you see us now, you will know that we all are doing very well. So this is the result after a long process of continuation of what you are doing and to some extent we are lucky.

Therefore, you cannot predict the results at the beginning; these are unknown facts. But as long as you dedicate yourself to something while following your heart, you may just be lucky. There are always thousands of attractions in front of you. Just guess: if I never quit painting, I may have a well-to-do life now. But at that time painting did not satisfy me, it’s going farer and farer from my expectations, I could not force myself to stick to it. It’s a miserable thing if you force yourself to do something.

 

S：You have made some works with the style of old films. As a young generation, I did not experience the same background at that time and did not see too much of that kind of films. What do you think are the attitudes for the young generation whom occasionally do not understand your works?

Z：It’s hard to say whether an audience understand your works or not. Even for the people of my generation, different person has different interpretations. What’s your personal interpretation? Everyone has his/her own educational background and different points of view. Any kind of interpretations is understandable, no matter whether he/she knows the background of my creation or has the same life backgrounds with me. But I always believe that there are some basic elements in any kind of visual languages, which are acceptable and echoing to all the audiences. For young people not understanding my works, I don’t believe that that is a problem.

 

S：You are an artist and also a teacher in a university simultaneously, and recently you became the director of OCAT Shanghai. Will these occupations influence your art practices? If so, is the influence a positive or negative one?

Z：Everything happens because of good influences and bad influences, but it’s difficult to say which kind of influences matters more. But now I am doing well; I think it’s a positive influence on me. Also if I can, I would treat all these occupations as individual and not relative things; and if necessary, I can also connect them together as one single thing. The concept of being an artist is very different from what we know from the past; at that time we must isolate ourselves in our studio to think about our own arts.

Moreover, an artist is also a social person; he/she is trying to make his/her voice in different ways that is relating, communicating, exchanging, subjective or objective, with the society. Teaching and becoming the director at the OCAT space are my way of interfering and exchanging communications with society; I think it is a meaningful choice.

I do not know whether I am doing these things in a correct or wrong way, maybe after several years we will be able to know. It’s a boring thing if a sixty-year-old person still likes doing the same things. I need a fresh interest; at least one that interests me. In China, many arts haven’t given a shot at being the director of a museum; why not give it a try?

 

S：The reason I wanted to ask you this question is that I admire that you have multiple identities. In the future, I also want to become an artist and a gallery founder at the same time, do you think that is possible?

Z：Theoretically, nothing is impossible nowadays as long as you try. But there are also practical problems you will definitely encounter if you have these two identities: Whose works do you plan to sell? Your own? Or that of other artists? If you sell others’, your taste may limit your selling; also you should know clearly if your gallery is a commercial or not. You should pay more attention to it’s operations and managements, especially you should take care of the relations between your gallery and the artists you are representing. You are still the middle party between the gallery and the artist. Anyway, it’s hard to say because I did not have such experiences.

As an artist, I am trying my best not to bring my personal preferences into the administration job in the space, and not to make all decisions by yourself, no more personal style.

 

S：I had interviewed many curators, most of them have many different positions/identities. Do you consider this as one popular trend in the future?

Z：Maybe yes. In the past, all occupations had their different and exclusive responsibilities, and people only took one job. But now in the post-industrial time and information age, people are capable of getting more information and possibilities at the same time. Also from the social sense, people’s identity has undergone many changes and become more diversified, sometimes many identities occur to a single person. But all this does not mean that one person must possess more than one identity. Some people are suitable, but not for all. So just follow your heart, and understand what you really want to do and what you are interested in.

 

动机

王上

 

此书中这些受访的“大人们”在我还穿纸尿裤的时候就都认识我。看他们的艺术作品自然而然地唤起我童年和少年的回忆。那时父母经常抱着或背着我参加各种聚会，那是北京早期的艺术活动，许多是中国当代艺术史的重要时刻。对我来说那些怀旧、快乐而亲切的感觉，其实与“家“的内涵紧紧联系在一起。在我成长的这18年里，中国当代艺术经历了最迅猛的发展。也正是在妈妈怀我的时候，她创作了自己的第一件装置艺术作品。

 

采访过程中，我突然意识到，一方面利用父母的关系和影响，可以走捷径，能够轻松采访到这些知名艺术圈内的人士，而其他人则需要经过努力，才能得到这样梦寐以求的机会；可是另一方面，我需要证明自己是合格的采访者，同时向他们展示，我可以辨别父母的资源中能够被合理利用的边界在哪里。

 

在网络信息资源极大丰富和社交媒体绚丽多元的全球化时代，面对多种选择和诱惑，作为90后，我只有努力工作来证明自己的能力。当然我还是无法确定未来的职业方向。这也是我要做这个采访项目的目的之一，即了解艺术圈里里外外的细节，试着体会被采访者从事艺术的真实感觉。

我的父母很开明，他们对我未来的事业没有刻意规划，只希望我能听从自己内心的召唤。有人可能会说，生长在自由和宽容的家庭，我很幸运；但有时候我宁愿能够锁定目标，按固定路线前行，而不是有一大堆机会摆在面前，让我自己徘徊不定，茫然不知所措。

 

这些如今已功成名就的艺术界“大人们“，在上世纪70-80年代职业选择的机会极有限，社会很封闭。尽管如此，当年的这些年轻人选择了只有能激发他们创造力和激情的——当代艺术。这让我很好奇，在没有先例可循的情况下，他们从哪里获得的信心去＂玩＂当代艺术的？他们做艺术时有没有受到政治或经济上的排挤和压力？他们的思想是怎么促使他们稳步前进的？他们是怎样形成自己的艺术观点的？更重要的是，他们又是怎样把中国当代艺术从地下的状态带到目前成为全球性市场竞争者的状态的？

采访的原本并不是想了解每个艺术家作品背后的哲学问题，只想了解他们／她们是怎样把持着他们的艺术态度才取得了今天的成就的。但是在采访了几个艺术家之后，我开始着迷并理解艺术家最日常的生活和他们艺术哲学之间特殊而复杂的关系。

 

采访预约经常是这个项目中最难的一个阶段。当我和艺术家约定采访时间时，有些人会拒绝我；有些要求我先发采访的问题给他们看；有些要求在接受采访前要和他们聊一聊才行；有些则揶揄我是否利用了父母的关系；还有的艺术家专门约在特殊场所（足底按摩馆）接受采访。原来，在任何地方，任何情况下都可以探讨艺术（它是艺术家生活的一部分）。我非常尊重每个人的决定，我理解他们的选择里所包含的学术定位和学术内涵。特别是有的艺术家宁愿花2个小时通电话和我解释他不能够接受采访的学术理由（其实我20分钟就可以采访完毕），可见他们对自己艺术坚定不移的立场和信念，也加深了我对艺术严肃性的理解。在采访的时候，大部分人还是把我当成小孩儿，看来需要再花一些时间，证明我现在可以谈论艺术以及复杂的思想了。肯定有一些人不愿意或者用不着敞开心扉、畅所欲言，他们还是觉得我的采访不如那些专业人士；可是实际的情形是，当面对他们看着长大的“孩子”，而不是记者或专业人士，真正把话题展开的时候，他们的坦率和放松是前所未有的，一些内容或话题，我相信他们不会在那些“正式的”采访中触及。

 

最重要的是，访谈让我从一个17岁少年的角度了解到，为什么在相同的社会背景影响下，不同的艺术家从事艺术的信念会有如此大的差异，有些艺术家惧怕改变；而另一些艺术家则轻易地改变自己，或经常改变自己的艺术方式体现自己的虚无情绪；但还是有人耐得住寂寞，自信而坚定地坚守着自己的艺术原则。让我没想到的是，采访的过程重新定义了我对艺术界限的认识，艺术疆界在我面前不断扩展，越放越大，由“小我”渐渐放大到“大世界”。同样，访谈的话题也更加多种多样，比如，东西方哲学与艺术体系差异的话题；自我身份认知和多重文化身份的话题；女性主义的话题；政治性的话题以及艺术家与市场关系的话题等等。采访过程让我感觉到，艺术家、企业家、哲学家、科学家的界限开始变得模糊，他们之间似乎都有一些共性。个人在未来想要取得成功，需要逐渐具备综合的跨界能力才行。

 

最后我要感谢我的父母，我幸运有一个非常美好的童年和父母对我未来方向的全面支持和宽容；感谢所有接受采访、不接受采访的每一位艺术界人士；感谢李小加（叔叔）给我精神上的支持；感谢外公给我在中国传统知识上的补充；感谢感谢林东威（干爹）对我的鼓励；感谢王志坚(姨父)给我的建议；感谢梁红岩帮助；感谢何叶子（姐姐）对本书设计的建议；感谢林天放（姨妈）给我的帮助。要感谢太多的人，没有他们，这本书不可能呈现在你们面前。

张培力

采访时间：2013.08.17

“对我来说，如果再让我活一遍，我也只能这样，因为你只能听从你内心的召唤。” —张培力

“艺术家不是在某个领域特有专利的一个人，绘画不是一个专利，一个东西变成专利的话， 就会变成社会的工具一样，机械地再生产了。” —张培力

 

张培力

采访时间：2013.08.17

上：我马上要上大学了，我对未来的专业不知如何选择。在你17岁你已经决定要当艺术家了吗？

张：好像是比较肯定的，对别的没有太多的兴趣，那时可能就想着做一个画家。17岁高中刚毕业，文革刚结束，那时除了画家没有别的事情可做。其实我做画家的想法可能更早，我从小学三年级就开始绘画，素描了。那时我的好朋友都跟画画有关系。我跟邻居的小孩不能玩儿到一块，那时特别崇拜美术学院的学生，就想如果有一天我能上美术学院，肯定是一件很牛逼的事情。

上：你怀疑或动摇过作艺术家的选择吗？

张：一开始没有想过艺术家会变成职业这个事情。高中一毕业，就要工作，因为家庭不会再养你。对一些职业感兴趣，比如电影院放电影，图书馆的图书管理员，它们既能工作又能享受看电影或看书，又能赚钱，是多么幸福的事情！后来恢复高考，有机会考大学了，就开始准备，考大学是人生中最重要的事情。1978年去建筑队工作两年，我除了工作就是画画，还没超过年岁。当时我搞测量工作，算是比较轻松的工种，但我当时就想，我是肯定不会一直在这儿工作的，因为这不是我喜欢的工作。以后我就考上了美院，就觉得自己除了美术，似乎也干不了什么别的工作了。虽然自己能否定、怀疑过绘画，但最终还是在大的艺术的范畴里工作。

上：作为第一个在中国做影像艺术的，你一开始是怎么想到要用电视语言来呈现你的作品呢？是有过看到西方的先例还是自己试验出来的？

张：分几个角度来说: 一方面，从86年后，我对绘画越来越怀疑，发现绘画不能够清晰表达自己对艺术的态度，后来不断尝试绘画以外的方法。

另一方面，电视录像越来越普及，当时有机会看到国外的电影，影像，当然video art的原作我并没有看到过，只是在杂志上看到过作品的图片，但只是一个小图片而已，一个装置加上一个电视机，里面播放内容，这个就是所谓的“video art”，那时很兴奋。因为当时除了这个以外，还有其他的不同的东西，如大地艺术、行为艺术、偶发艺术、几何物作品艺术、装置、现代艺术等形形色色的形式。

我觉得如果新艺术是一种适合的方式，都是可以拿来用的，不会受任何的限制。艺术家不是在某个领域特有专利的一个人，绘画不是一个专利，一个东西变成专利的话， 就会变成社会的工具一样，机械地再生产了。

后来也是一个偶然的机会，让我想到要用录像来表达。 当时觉得录像呈现的有几个方面：

普通人对录像的认识是从电视频道开始，及商业频道认识的，他们对录像的可能性是没有任何概念的。我要做的一个和一般的关于录像的概念不同的东西，这个是明确的。录像内所具有的时间和画面的运动感，又是绘画和其他摄影等东西不具有的，它可能会与你的身体发生关系，比如我们在看录像，不可能像看画面一样，几分钟就看完了。它的语言表达需要在一段时间内才能完全呈现，因此这个时间变得越来越重要。在这个时间内你观看的内容和时间有某种关系，对观看者的身体会造成某种影响，如果片子是很无聊的，你身体在观看当中，会觉得是一种负担，是一种累赘。

我希望造成这样的感觉，所以在88年，我拍了一个3小时的录像《30×30》，实际上有些恶作剧的想法，就是让人不舒服的。

上：你展出完《30×30》的时候，是什么原因让你更深入和持续实践影像艺术的？是别人给你的夸奖呢还是纯粹的好奇心？

张：影像从技术上越来越容易掌握，是比较容易控制的。觉得是一种很方便的事情。但是写实的绘画，最长需要几个月的时间才能完成一张作品。录像从表现上来说也许更直接得多，我更愿意用录像的方式来做。

从89年以后，到90年底初，我得到一些机会来拍摄录像，包括中央电视台播音员邢质斌，这对我来说是一个很大的刺激，也就是录像能走这么远。我可以借录像这种东西，介入到主流媒体当中去，运用主流媒体的形象来拍摄，后来发现录像真的具有非常强的社会干预和介入的功能，我觉得是一件很有意思的事情。

后来90年代初我去美国92、93年，欧洲、法国，也看了很多东西，所以很兴奋，他们丰富拓展了我的视野，使我觉得很多东西是不谋而合的。当然我没有从文字和概念上做过研究，但我直接看外国录像，就会产生一种很亲切的感觉。我觉得我们在做一个同样的事情，这也可能是我持续做下去的原因。

上：我特别喜欢看你和老爸的影像艺术，我也很希望象你们一样做影像艺术，但是作为我来讲你们的作品市场很困难，我觉得我也想过一个相当好的生活，特别是我们这代人在优越的生活环境下长大，你能给我一些建议吗？同时是什么让你继续坚持来做影像艺术的？

张：从你开始你认定还要从事艺术行当的时候，你需要做一个充分的思想准备，你是打算好了，要过一个一般的生活，你可能只能温饱地活着，至于你能不能很富裕，过上优越的生活条件，要看你的运气，不是每个人都有这样的机会的。

我们在一开始的确十分艰难，那时你爸妈在纽约，我去看他们，他们也很艰难。我们在杭州的一些朋友， 如耿老师，都很艰难。那时艺术本身不能给你带来好的生活。有时为了生活就得用其他方法来挣钱，那时我也画过广告或商业的东西，是纯粹为了挣钱，我们也了解到，国外的艺术家在出名之前，也是什么事情都做，设计啊，商业拍摄啊，甚至有些人在比较有名后还在做。你认识的Lois Conner, 她是做黑白摄影的，她也做商业摄影，用来解决生活的问题，她有一个职业，曾在Yale教摄影；我和耿老师，也从来没有离开过我们正式的教育职业，因为我们知道，我们的收入是非常不稳地的，对我来说，有一个基本的收入，可以有一个基本的保证，不至于最后困难到揭不开锅。其实后来看起来大家都混得不错。你爸妈，我也还行，还有耿老师，我觉得这个就是很多年的积累的结果，而且我们的运气还不错。

不是一开始我们就能认定，以后的结果会怎样，这些都是不知道的。只是认为这个是你想要做的、感兴趣的事情。对我来说，如果再让我活一遍，我也只能这样，因为你只能听从你内心的召唤。其他的诱惑是很多的，你想，如果我当初不放弃绘画，生活肯定要比今天好得多，至少我是这么认为的。而当你感觉绘画对你越来越没有感觉，离你越来越远，这个东西也不能勉强。勉强做的事情会很痛苦，也没有什么意义。

上：培力大大，你有一部分作品是用老电影片子来做的，因为我们新一代人没有你们的时代背景，从来没有看过也不了解这些老片子，你觉得当新一代的人看不懂你的作品时你是怎么对待这个问题的？

张：作品看懂看不懂都是相对而言的。就算是和我同时代的人，他们看过这些老片子，但每个人的解读也不一样。你从这个片子里面看到了什么？有的人了解作品的背景，有的人则不了解，我觉得这个都不是问题，因为不了解的话有其不了解情况下的解读，比如说，我们当时看到西方的绘画，（接电话，打断）每个人思考的角度是不一样的，哪怕是陌生的东西。我永远相信，视觉的语言很多，包括声音，他们都有一些基本的元素，都会对人产生心理上的共鸣，这个对每个不同文化背景知识层面的人，造成不同的解读。年轻人不了解，这个不是问题。

上：你又是做艺术的，又是教艺术的，现在又加了馆长的身份，这些工作会对你的艺术有影响吗？这个影响是正面的还是负面的？

张：一个事情的发生，它终归会有正面和负面的影响，但是很难说哪个方面会多一点。从我现在还在继续做这个事情上来看，那肯定是正面的影响更多一点吧。而且你可以把教学，做艺术，当馆长当成互不相干的事情来看。但如果说他们之间内在的联系，也可以当做一个事情来看待，因为现在艺术家的概念已经不像以前那样，把自己关在工作室苦思冥想去创作。因为首先艺术家是一个社会中的人，他用他的各种方式在说话，在试图发出声音，试图跟社会产生某种关系、对话或交换，不管是主观或客观的东西。教学和美术馆的行政工作是我介入社会并产生对话或交流一种方式，我觉得是有意义的。

我现在无法判断是对是错，我无法确定，可能要过很多年才能反省现在的工作是否更有意义。我现在已经是近60的人了，一直做同样的事情让人觉得乏味，我还是希望有时会有一些新的事情可做，至少会有新鲜感。这个事情到现在我觉得至少是好玩的。在中国，没有很多艺术家去尝试去做美术馆的馆长，那为什么不去试一试呢？

上：我问你这个问题是因为我很羡慕你这种多重身份，我以后又想当艺术家，又做画廊老板，你觉得这样两个身份可以成立吗？

张：我们现在只是讨论啊，我觉得没什么事情是不可以做，不可以尝试的。但如果你是艺术家，同时又是画廊老板，会产生一些问题的，诸如具体操作的问题：你的画廊卖谁的作品？你自己的还是别人的？如果你卖别人的作品，你会受限于自己的品味。所以你的画廊品味要避免过分的狭窄；另一个要关注你画廊的运作状态，它是一个商业运作的行为，如果你是画廊所有人，他是一个艺术家，批评家和收藏家之前的一个纽带或润滑油。如果你同时又是艺术家，这两个身份合二为一，我不太知道具体怎么操作。

我作为艺术家，现在又在做画廊的行政人员，我现在尽可能不要把自己的好恶带到美术馆的工作中去。我尽可能不决定美术馆的所有事情，不要有过强的个人色彩。

上：我观察到周围的叔叔都有多重身份，你觉得这种多重身份是否是未来发展的趋势？

张： 有可能。以前职业分工是比较明确的，人从事的工作是比较单一的。现在是后工业时代和信息化时代造成的这种变化，人类接受信息越来越多，提供的可能性越多。 我觉得社会的结构上，人的身份发生了很多变化，变得越来越多样化，有身份的重叠。但不是说人一定要有两三个身份，而只是说有这种可能，它可能适合某些人， 但不一定适合所有人。所以要听从自己内心的召唤，认识自己到底想要做什么，我适合做什么，我对什么感兴趣等。